Trinity Reign Development Forums

So. Before I go ranting off about the multitude of ideas I have for a magic system I first must ask if anything about a possible magic system has been discussed. I realize that we've spoken of crystals/gems and imbedding them in weapons and said crystals producing a certain magical effect.

Are their any plans for magic combat?

Honestly (and I know I'm starting to rant but I can't help it) I'd be interested in a system based on words. Seeing as we have the Ancient Language (that I know Butterpillar has done some work on, including gathering the words we have in the wiki) and I believe it's described as actually having 'power' behind it. Why go off and make something else up entirely and leave that good portion of the settings to just be words?

Correct me if I'm wrong Butterpillar but I also remember you writing a specific piece of lore and asking me to give you a piece on learning magic. We tied it to temples and the gods and I believe I mentioned needing to study the Ancient Language (my memory is terribly foggy). I think if we really are going to keep strong ties between Religion and Magic we might as well keep the Ancient Language as something that helps to solidify those ties.

So how would magic work? Well there would be a difference in simply saying the words and truly using the words. Anyone might know the words but when a character uses his/her willpower they can force the words to life, make the words do what they've asked. It works well in a sort of elemental magic system where you command the river to slash your opponent or command flames to burn someone. What would be amazing is if you could say...only use water magic when near a source of water, etc etc. That would put some strong limits on magic and how it works. In temples you'd be taught the language as well as how to use your will to force the words to life.

There is another type of magic I'd like to see, possibly a dual system (or a trinity system if you include gems). This type of magic would be ritual. Conducting a certain ritual, performing certain rites, etc etc. This magic would more often than not need more than one player and you would be able to do a lot more than just command the elements around you. However, you have the limitation of needing more players than just yourself for a majority of the spells and certainly the stronger ones.

In fact, now that I've ranted I like it.

Trinity Magic System, consisting of:

-Gem Magic (which sounds rather earthen and Bovol)
-Ritual Magic (which reminds me of the Dargonic ritualistic stuff I've written before)
-Language Magic (which is all elemental and such and sounds very Iantha-like)

Of course, the 3 forms of magic don't have to be for just that single god. Perhaps instead those forms of magic were first associated with the respective gods and stuff branched out. I mean, I could imagine a few gals getting together and performing a ritual to Iantha that like summoned white flame or something. But the 3 forms of magic are there.

Yes, sorry for the rant.

To give a quick answer, we've had a mish mash of ideas, but certainly nothing i'd call a plan.



Agreed. I remembered what you were talking about and was surprised not to find it on the wiki. So, running with your idea below on the three versions of magic, i added that article to the wiki here. That article would, in a very detailed manner, describe some form of training Language Magic. Note that it will need some revision most likely, and I have only quickly scanned it to make sure it was the right article you were remembering.



I really like this description, especially the idea of separating just saying the words and using a willpower to make the words "happen." That idea, i think, is very crucial to the ideal magic system. Also, the part about using actual bodies of water for water spells, etc is pretty awesome. I would say that that would be more high end spells, and thus more powerful. I'm unsure if spells should be limited to what elements are around, but maybe they're stronger if they are around those elements. But that's something i'd encourage some debate on.



Love this as well. I could totally see in some sort of battle a group that is on the battlefield, but must be protected to ensure that a certain spell remains cast. Maybe a protection spell, or a debuff on the enemy, etc.. These spells would completely sway the tide of battle, but require a significant sacrifice (manpower).

A couple of things to think about if we were to use this magic system:

Would mages be able to be very strong in all three types of magic? Only two? Just one?
How does one train in the respective types of magic?
The idea of elemental magic being limited by elements present.

Good stuff Duraza, I'll look through that article tomorrow as i'm about to step out for the night and see what exactly is in it, but i realllllly like these ideas. It seems to be a tight system without any real obvious holes at first glance. It's also intuitive and all that good stuff. We'll just have to work out the specifics assume no one really pokes a big hole here.

Also, change your sig! WTF is Project Ura???

So, I'll just take a moment to answer the questions you've presented and see if anyone else has any input as well.



1.) I would like mages to be able to be familiar with all three kinds of magic. However, they also have the choice to work specifically in one. Basically, you'd have these 3 paths to magic power. If you choose just one path specifically you can really become an expert in that path. The more you spread out your research and 'multi-class' the the less skilled you can be in any one particular path. However, to make up for that you've an array of spells that you can use.

2.) I already expressed that Language Magic should be a very studied thing, worked on in mutlitple temples.

Ritual magic I think should be a form of magic you learn from the God of your choice. In other words, you go to a specific shrine or specific temple and learn there. Dargon worshipers learn ritual from Dargon temple, Iantha from Iantha temple, Trinity from Trinity temple, Bovol from Bovol temple. Afterall, ritual magic wouldn't rely on self powered will but on the God's strength. A Iantha follower probably won't get any power from doing a ritual to Dargon and vice versa.

Gem magic I'm unsure of. I feel like it really should be connected to somehow identifying the power that jewels hold and experimentation on combination. Perhaps it could be very much like the 'I'm either making an epic spell or going to blow myself up.' Kind of thing. Getting the right kind of gems, right size, and producing the right effects in the correct combinations.

3.) If elemental power is not to be limited to having the said element around you then I'd like to see two things. First, if you do have the element there a normal spell will be more powerful and there are certain spells you can only produce with that element readily available. If you don't it drains more of your own energy because now you have the addition of calling the element into being. If you are by a river you must only command the water to do your bidding. If you are in a desert then you have to conjour the water up, sustain the water, and then have the water do what you need it to do. I'm not saying we should have a spell for each step of the process, just make the spell take more energy.

This would make elemental mages(Language Magic) much more interested in using the elements around them to their advantage. They would also possibly restrict themselves to areas where their own magic is greatest.

In the end, that makes it so every one of the three types of magic has a fatal flaw.

Language Magic: A Language mage who finds skill in a particular element or group of elements will find himself/herself restricted to areas that have that element to be fully powerful. When traveling in a place where elements are not of their specialty they may ask for aid because they cannot wield their magic to it's full threatening power.

Gem Magic: A gem mage has to rely on having their gems in order to use any magic at all. Also, they aren't capable of having a lot of spells readily available. Complex spells take more gems, simple spells take one or two gems but are weaker. This limits the Gem mage to having only a few spells prepared at any time. Epic thing about Gem Mages are they are limited to no one place and can actually solo.

Ritual Magic: Ritual mages obviously have the limitation of basically being unable to do spells on their own. Perhaps a Ritual Mage will have a handfull of spells that they can do on their own as temporary buffs but that would be all. Mass buffs and powerful attacking spells would require more than that single mage. Of course, it is a bonus just to have other players to help you fight and stuff wherever you go.

Now that was a rant Duraza, and as weird as it may sound, keep at it, please, give us a rant a day

Heh, thanks Butterpillar.

Actually, I was thinking more on the topic. Especially when it comes to the idea of Magic and Might and how weapons and such fit into the mix, other bonuses for how the magics work, etc. This is what I came up with.



Addition: The nature of Gem magic makes it so that once one knows the basics they really only must take the time to experiment with the gems they gather rather then spend time studying as other mages do. If a Gem mage is not a jeweler they have to rely on others to shape their gems correctly. Being a Gem mage often means you are also proficient with the weapon of your choice that you have your gems embedded in. Gem mages who are jewelers are more capable than just normal jewelers and so can make a livelihood from working with gems that they find. Also, selling gem spells and combinations is a profitable business. Many metal-workers and blacksmiths will ask Gem Mages to create spells for the weapons and armor they create, paying them nicely for their work.



Addition: Many Language Mages work as guardians in specific places. These places allow them to use their power to their full extent. For example, a group of Language Mages who specialize in water my guard a port or bay. Earth specialists may guard mountain villages or forests. Language mages also are known to be some of the most knowledgeable people in Ura. They know a great amount of history purely because the oldest works are written in the ancient Language. When exploring it is the Language mage who can interpret archaic writings that one may run into. Many of the oldest artifacts in existence as well as great powers can only be understood and used by Language Mages.



Addition: Ritual Mages are often referred to as battle mages. During a battle there is usually a group of Ritual Mages casting powerful spells of protection over their allies and chanting to summon forces to crush enemies. Many Ritual mages have priest status at the temple of their choice or are actual priests and priestesses. They have strong ties with their chosen god (or Trinity fully) which allows their prayers to be heard and take form as magic. A ritual mage, because of his/her closeness to the Gods is very much effected by their Affinity Bar. If they are in high affinity with the god their rituals are made to their power is much greater. Ritual mages are also those most effected by the seasons. During the season of a certain god a single ritual mage can be a dangerous opponent, losing the need to rely on others for all their spells. Trinity Ritual Mages can not act alone like the others but affinity with any of the gods increases their power.

I love all of your ideas Duraza. Not only are they unique and awesome, but they seem to resonate a lot of gameplay in them. (IE game balance and stuff).

Something i was just thinking when you wrote the addition about Language Magic. Who's gonna be a fire mage? How often is fire present? How can we adapt this idea to some of those elements.

The preliminary element list is:

Light - Dark
Air/Wind - Earth
Water - Fire

The bolded ones are the ones that need some thoughts. Earth could use some thought too as.. when isn't Earth present? This is sort of the problem with Air as well.

Light and Dark could be somewhat self-explanatory with night and day, but it could be taken further. For example, Dark spells are more powerful when Dargon's Red Moon is present (Phash, Salqad, Weeheen, and Ralor; Weeheen being the strongest as that is when Dargon's Moon is alone in the sky and at its highest. Reference: http://wiki.trinityreign.com/index.php/Astrology) The same could go for Light and when Iantha's moon is present.

So yeah, those things need some thoughts.

Otherwise, i think spell crafting with gems is a friggin' great idea. Selling and trading them, as well as commissioning people to make spells for you, or to mine certain gems, or purify them etc etc will add great depth and complexity to the economy.

Battle mages are great as well. They'll be absolute forces to be reckoned with, and will require friends/allies to really work.

Ok, I am going to go off a little here and actually combine magic with actual science for my little rant. It always bothered me how magics are divided based on things that actually make them related or lumped together based on things that divide them in science.

Fire is heat and fuel. Heat is everywhere, fuel is not.

I would say rather than having the ability to manipulate fire, give the ability to manipulate heat itself. Either creating it, or moving it around. In this way, a thermal mage could not only create/manipulate fire, but also create severe (or mild) cold by removal of heat.

Air and water are both fluids, and could be dealt with by the same set of magic, manipulating the flow of either. This would include diverting water out of a stream to drown an enemy, or lifting things with a flow of air.

Earth/solids are the binding between molecules, so I would make that magic related to the static control of all elements, including air and water. By static, I mean you can only change how the base molecules/atoms/elements react/attach to each other, not manipulating the energy (heat) or flow (movement) of the whole material. So you could not rip a chunk of rock out of the earth and pitch it at someone (that would be fluid manipulation), but you could make that rock very soft, or very hard. It would be very possible to form tools, weapons, or figures with this magic by simply hardening the shape you want within a solid, and making the rest 'powder' off. Water could be turned into air, or could be created out of air (harder to do) by separating/combining elements.

Light (and dark by being lack of light) is related to electricity (in that both are subatomic partials that function at the speed of light) , so light/electricity could possibly be combined into one, being the manipulation of electrons or photons. This obviously means you can create/redirect/destroy light or manipulate electricity to form lightning or hand buzzers.

Gravity...... who the hell knows what it is? Don't know how to deal with it via magic, or if we should. Might be better off just leaving it out and letting the other magics deal with similar aspects.

Combining the magics would give you the effect of ripping a chunk of dirt out of the ground (fluid magic), hardening it into a rock (elemental magic), setting it on fire (thermal magic) and magnetizing it so it sticks to his armor (light/electron magic) before flinging it at a foe (fluid magic again).

Diamond missiles from the air would be a little different. You would have to collect CO2 from the air (fluid), pull the carbon from it and restructure into diamond spears (elemental) and once again fling at your foe (fluid).

That is my rant on the subject. Comment away.

Hrm. I think Utm brings up something we should consider as well...

See, I can understand completely the logic of what he's saying. It does make sense. But at the same time, another could argue that it's science and not -magic-. We could have a magic system based more so on how principles work scientifically (when considering the elements).

However the problem I always find with science being brought into a magic conversation is that if you try to base some things on science and then others on magic. For example, someone using 'holy fire' makes no sense at all scientifically. Why? Because 'holy' isn't some attribute that we can add to fire to help it burn zombies more effectively. You could possibly come up for some explanation as to why but then the game moves towards sci-fi instead of fantasy.

I'm more so a fan of not bringing science into magic. Like, the heat thing you brought up UtM reminds me of an argument that was going on on another forums I wander around. Someone wondered if a magic user could make fire that burns under water. In response a lot of people gave the idea that you might be able to heat the water but you would not be able to create fire. Someone else however mentioned that magic doesn't work the way science does. Magic could -if it wanted to- convert the molecules of water around your arm into oxygen while you supplied the heat and as more water came to touch the flame it would just continually turn into oxygen. It is -magic- after all.

Explaining magic with science IMO works in some cases but then there is a lot of things that one can do with magic that science shouldn't bother to try and explain. Like, trying to explain the properties of werewolves and vampires through scientific means. And yes, I'm sure you -can- do it but when you explain one part of the game that way and not the others then you end up getting these random scientific tidbits in a medieval fantasy game. Its inconsistent. The two won't mesh well.

IMO you have to do one or the other. If we are keeping this a fantasy game its better we don't try to explain one or two things which science but then leave everything else alone. There are a great many things that are in our settings that have no basis in science (concepts of the soul is a good example) and I dislike the idea of having a magic system that is heavy in science but then nothing else in the world has any scientific explanation to it. Like I said, its simply inconsistent.

Edit: Sorry late so there could be some typos. I fixed what I saw.

I do agree with Duraza, medieval magic is medieval magic, and present scientific knowledge doesn't really help.

About what Easton mentioned concerning the elements, expecially about air and earth, I guess the point is that a mage can cast a better spell if he is in an open field (air) or near a mountain/meadow (earth) rather than being in a crowded room or having a handful of stones/a cart full of clods at hand. For the same reason it's easier to cast spells based on the element water being near a lake/sea/river than being near a fountain or a jag of water. I think that, after all, we can consider underwater sources to be well represented in Ura, hence water can be considered virtually as common as air and earth.

Fire needs some thoughts as you well said Easton. Maybe we can consider it linked to the 'living force/vital energy' of plants and animals (and people, why not?). It may be linked to the night as well, when in general living creatures are asleep and they use less of their energies so that a mage can have them at his disposal and borrow them easily. It may also be linked to some of the moon phases, like in Edirat, when animals are usually more aggressive, fire spells can be more powerful, or Wheeheen when everything related to darkness is enhanced. Fire may be linked to the distant shining stars, another good reason for this kind of magic to be related to night and darkness. In this way, not only a bonfire can be a good source, but also illuminum, with its glow can be a good ally to a fire mage.

In general I would say that air and earth magic can be considered easier to learn and use than water magic, furthermore, fire magic can be consider the toughest one.

Just some thoughts tossed there to see what you guys think.

In many ways, i share Duraza's feelings. I think, for the way the current Settings are in TR, people explain things within a religious context. For example, the three moons. They don't consider them as celestial bodies dancing around each other in the infinite expanse of space. Instead, they consider them the dwellings of the Trinity.

Magic is the same way, at it's core. The use of magic is essentially people training their mind so that they can interact with the Creator's Essence which is found in everything in Ura, including people. This is how the people of Ura have explained the use of magic. Is there some other science behind it? Possibly, but we haven't determined that as developers yet. I lean towards not developing an intricate science for magic because it seems to remove the need for a religious explanation.

I still think we need a solution for the wind/air, earth and fire elements and how they can be present or not present. Butterpillar has some good ideas that i can get into a bit further, but i have to run right now. I'll post again sometime tonight, maybe.